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Contributing packages
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 Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 2:50:57 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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How can one submit the packages that have been done? I tried to upload them to the ftp but after uploading they can't be seen in the upload folder... Anyway there shoul be some procedure for testing the contributed packages. I believe thed day after day more and more people will try to contribute some on their own. Maybe it could be usefull to put these untested packages in some directoiry on the ftp so that people could download them and have a try before rodney considers them 100% OK. That would speed up bugtracking.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 3:18:23 PM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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An excellent idea! For own testing purposes, I've set up a virtual XP under VMware.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 4:18:58 PM
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Rodney
Posts: 3729
Joined: Jul. 9, '02,
From: /Tools lab
Status: offline
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The upload folder has the contents hidden so that we don't turn into a
server (even temporarily) for MP3's and porno. Experience has, alas, necessitated
this procedure. There is a beta directory that things do get tested from.
I can move things to there as they come in.
This topic does give me an 2 opportunities:
1) I'm pleased to see more contributors starting to appear. This bodes well for Interix.
2) I've been slowed down the past couple of weeks. The number of hours I can do with /Tools
has been dramatically cut. As many of you understand not a lot of money gets made giving
away software. In fact it gets consumed. Same with advice in the Forums and via e-mail.
We have been receiving sponsorship to keep the /Tools site running. But that has dried
up significantly. We had been hoping more service work would be generated to help keep
the site going. You'd be amazed at how large firms (corp & consulting) like me to sit
in and provide solutions for them, yet want me to implement it for free. I assume they'll
still get paid for my work by their clients. A fine thank-you.
The end result is either /Tools will be going away or will undergo dramatic changes.
This will affect, literally, thousands of people per day who download packages.
So I'd like to take this opportunity to ask fair readers, either here in the Forums
or by private e-mail (tools@interopsystems.com), to help see if the sponsorships of
the /Tools sites can be helped. Can you write a short note to us telling how /Tools
has helped you and what state your Interix-world would be without /Tools ?
We are hoping that your public and private input can sway things to keep /Tools
in a high functional state. We (and particularly me) would really appreciate it!
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 5:19:06 PM
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steveh
Posts: 195
Joined: Jan. 23, '04,
Status: offline
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/Tools is an invaluable source. It would be a terrible loss to the interix world to see it disappear. As a personal user Im not in any position to offer large finacial backing. But would glady contribute what I could to help, be that a paypal thing or if it would help to see if I would obtain an alternative download location to aleviate the bandwidth costs. Your help and over my introduction to interix has been key in making sfu a viable solution.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 6:07:23 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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I believe that sometime a community mght grow aroun the interix. Without the /tools it would be as useless as any other piece of OS without the software to be used on it. For me it is a very valuable source of software and inspiration. Maybe it could turn more into a community grown project to port as many tools as available from other unix systems?
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 6:38:16 PM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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quote:
There is a beta directory that things do get tested from.
I can move things to there as they come in.
Could be automated, log in as member for upload/download and report abuse.
quote:
1) I'm pleased to see more contributors starting to appear. This bodes well for Interix.
Well, nobody knows where Interix is "headin, Lincoln County Road or Armageddon?" (Dylan).
MS might as well close doors and "re-contaminate" the code -- they got the SCO license.
But as long as this freewillin' BSD spirit is prevailing, I do also think it bodes
very well for Interix.
And even if Interix should become a closed system -- FreeBSD is gaining more and
more a momentum among hackers; and this site could easily switch over (Linux has
become a bit too mainstream and associated with dark suites).
quote:
We have been receiving sponsorship to keep the /Tools site running. But that has dried up significantly. We had been hoping more service work would be generated to help keep the site going.
Make it a pay site. Mandrake has done this, RH did this, not too costly, but what the
heck, we pay for books, magazines.
Sell god ports (Richard Stalman sold Emacs, and the FSF wants money for porting).
I'll gladly pay 100 bucks for an excellent Emacs port (with GNUS!!!), tetex etc.
One thing that really could make headlines: Galeon or Firefox on Interix (no
ActiveX, no spyware, no dialers); Novell/Ximian Evolution (Outlook-like)
with Exchange connector is GPLed.
quote:
The end result is either /Tools will be going away or will undergo dramatic changes. This will affect, literally, thousands of people per day who download packages.
I think none of us wants this to happen! Are there any numbers out there?
How many Interix users are there?
quote:
Can you write a short note to us telling how /Tools
has helped you and what state your Interix-world would be without /Tools ?
One machine with Windows, the rest (I've got six, got them for next to nothing when
working at HP Norway) Linux and FreeBSD, one perhaps with Solaris (student price).
Now I have three Windows boxes, and there is no place I learned so much about UNIX
and also Linux as here.
There is another business idea for you and Mark: Write the book "SFU Unleashed",
target Windows and UNIX users as well. Start of with the history of UNIX/BSD,
go on with Helen Custer (Inside Windows NT), story of Softway Systems,
go through the commands (don't forget the anecdotes ("biff" and so on).
Short tutorial on vi and GNUS/Emacs and much about writing code and
porting.
Make it a thick book. The Interix 2.2 CD contains much good stuff
that can be used, and a lot of the book is already written here.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 27, '04, 7:11:30 PM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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quote:
There is another business idea for you and Mark: Write the book "SFU Unleashed",
target Windows and UNIX users as well. Start of with the history of UNIX/BSD,
...
Just a P.S. on this. Of course Mach, and the "Herds of GNUs" (HURD) might well
come into being.
But it was a more important point. MS has done much to enhance the GUI, the
command line, however, is completely user-hostile, all this heritage from CP/M and
DOS, too long path names, why not just /bin /var /opt and so on?
ABM (all but MS) is going UNIX. I do believe (perhaps hope is a better chosen
word) that UNIX will be the lingua franca for computers in general. So Windows
administrators will need to learn the UNIX command line. It is strange how modern
this "legacy" system feels, and how old-fashioned this modern Windows is at the
command prompt.
Just my thoughts ...
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 28, '04, 2:24:31 AM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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Just wanted to add that if /tools becomes a paysite I will surely quickly run out of money :(
Anyway my Idea is to have as many unix tools as possible ported to interix so that if I ssh into my win-box I will feel like on an unix server. And the second part is to have the X tools ported.
Maybe some Idea is to build a complete unix environment for windows, with a nice X server and package installer, some configuration utilities that will help run through the config files from the windows desktop and will help integrating the /tool with desktop as well.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 28, '04, 2:50:45 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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Rodney, can you tell what is the thing that is generating the biggest costs?
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 RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 28, '04, 3:35:18 PM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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quote:
I do have numbers for downloads of SFU 3.5 from MS. But I will have to check to see if
I'm allowed to repeat this information. It is a very large number. But I know I can't
talk about the interesting future happenings... yet
All right then, I think MS is about to become one of the largest players in
the UNIX world. David Cutler got the kernel right, and Softway Systems
saw the opportunity.
Two commonplaces: Interix is by now an MS product, and money is no problem
in Redmond.
So the question is: What can we do to make MS happy? Personally I have no
problems to reconcile Stalman's and Gate's point of view in a higher
form of Hegelian synthesis (actually scratched two Linux boxes, in
order to run Windows with Interix).
(1) There has to be a business perspective -- which I've left, and I will
not return -- in short: "I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more"
(still Dylan). Others got to keep track on that road
("The HP Way" won't return).
(2) There has to be a playground for a new generation of computer
professionals -- that's where I'm at, now at the University to finish my
bachelor degree in Computer Science, later at school, writing articles
and perhaps books.
MS has to be convinced that Interop Systems is the most important site
to take care of these two factors -- for us, who use it, there's no question.
Gate's genius was for at least two decades being in touch with the grass-root.
Somewhere along the line, that got somehow lost. But I think it's coming back
again. At HP we worked close together with MS, arrogance replaced with
openness. The battlefield of truth is no more FUD, but technology, and MS
has excellent products. This holds true for Linux and the BSDs as well.
Then, how is MS going to meet this challenge?
I can only speak from my own experience: At the Computer Science Department
we get MSDN Academic for free -- quite nice! -- but we're also supplied with
Cygwin (for those who don't run Linux), in stead of Interix. Something
serious has to be done with that.
In the Norwegian Windows, UNIX and Linux news groups I'm a warm proponent
of Interix (a lot of Linux users dual-boot). Interix as such -- without
Interop Systems -- interesting, but not more, but with all the additions,
the "1-800-ITS-INTERIX" ports and support: mind-blowing! Much better
than dual-booting or CrossOver Office/Win4Lin (WINE doesn't work).
That's what MS has to be told. Mark Funkhauser says: Yes, MS is serious
about Interix. So go out to the universities and high-schools, award prizes
to the best Interix apps (MS has to do this). Tell them, it's Interop Systems
that will guide them trough the hurdles.
Still just some thoughts, but that's what I'm going to tell my future
pupils (and tomorrow as a substitute instructor on Windows 2003 for a
friend of mine).
P.S. And there's still is the book on SFU/Interix. My English is not the best
(although brought up trilingual), but for the last 10-15 years, I've mostly
read American Computer books, and I would be more than happy to come with
input (worked as an editor for a publishing company in a former life).
I've got some quite clear ideas about how it should be organized, and by now
I think the main target reader should be the mainstream Windows administrator --
the last 500 pages for UNIX people.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 28, '04, 3:39:13 PM
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Rodney
Posts: 3729
Joined: Jul. 9, '02,
From: /Tools lab
Status: offline
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> Rodney, can you tell what is the thing that is generating the biggest costs?
That would be me most likely.
Same as most IT shops: it's the personnel.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 28, '04, 4:11:59 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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I can volounteer to ;) Would be more than happy to see myself helping ;)
Anyway - the point is that as Jonsmi said barebone interix is wothr nothing. It is the toolset that "makes the aircraft fly". So IF MS wants to play more seriously in the unix area they need to support the developement of the tools. And the way to do it in the least costly way is to support the movement of people building apps to interix.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 29, '04, 2:42:24 PM
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Forum_Admin
Posts: 15
Joined: Jul. 8, '02,
From: Redmond, WA
Status: offline
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This has been an interesting discussion. Someone asked about site stats, so I've posted them on Tools Site Stats.
Before going to a subscription model (like Mandrake and Red Hat, etc.) we're going to try a PayPal "donation" approach. We certainly have the traffic, so it will depend on whether enough people see enough value to make a US$20 donation. It's worth a try.
Bill M.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 29, '04, 4:41:32 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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What about selling some advert space, and adding some advert materials to the sold CDs?
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 30, '04, 11:35:45 AM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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quote:
Someone asked about site stats, so I've posted them on Tools Site Stats.
[...]
The Page View count on www.interopsystems.com/tools/warehouse.htm has been steady at around 9,000 to 10,000 per month. We don’t have a measure of unique visitors.
Impressing, but it has to be more, should also be measured by IP address. Many of them
are presumably the same persons (I am).
quote:
Before going to a subscription model (like Mandrake and Red Hat, etc.) we're going to try a PayPal "donation" approach. We certainly have the traffic, so it will depend on whether enough people see enough value to make a US$20 donation. It's worth a try.
Has donation ever worked in the long run? Good and useful shareware will
most of the time remind you, that you're better off to pay.
US$20 as a voluntary donation seems way to low. Good computer books are
between US$50 and US$100. The price for SUSE Linux is between US$60 and
US$99 -- twice a year upgrading. For a one year RH membership
for one machine, I think it was US$66, for two machines, I know
it was US$99.
For Mandrake:
quote:
Join the Mandrakelinux Users Club now by choosing a level of
Membership (yearly payment):
Standard Member ($5.50 month/$66 year or 60 € year)
Silver Member ($11 month/$132 year or 120 € year) Recommended level!
Gold Member ($55 month/$660 year or 600 € year)
Platinum Member ($110 month/$1320 year or 1200 € year)
Notes: 1) Credit Card, Wired transfer are accepted as well as check
for US and Canada.
2) The "Standard" level is ideal for Students and low-resource users.
For all others, we recommend Silver membership and above.
http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/club/
Use a different pricing model, accommodating to economic possibilities
(students, Eastern Europe, etc). The cost of a Happy Meal in various
countries has turned out to be a good measure.
I think US$99 is reasonable and should be mandatory for access to
Interop Systems (the first one or two months for free).
And what can we get back?
* The same high-quality discussions, advices, tips -- and not to forget
the UNIX lore and humor of old (Rodney touches upon it from time to time,
much more of that!).
* An in-depth understanding of SFU/Interix (documentation is scarce).
* More help on porting issues.
What does Interop Systems get back?
* Paid for helping us, which is only reasonable.
* Interop Systems will get a lot more utilities and apps (exciting for
us as well)
* Ending up with a site that is even more attractive for future
funding/sponsoring.
Personally I think MS got one thing fundamentally wrong with the rise
of Linux and FreeBSD (sure there are the religious guys, licenses might
be a consideration).
Many of the Linux users (just an impression hanging around in Linux groups)
use Windows as well. They want to learn and use UNIX, program and fiddle
around. In this respect, Interix offers an excellent opportunity.
(Should be interesting to know how many Gygwin users there are.)
Another issue is that computer geeks tend to have two or more machines
and want them to work together in a seamless way.
So for MS, the most interesting thing should be to supply an as good UNIX
as possible. Here Interop Systems plays a crucial role.
Technology, not FUD (which no-one believes anymore) is the key issue.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 30, '04, 2:20:34 PM
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cortez_
Posts: 330
Joined: Mar. 27, '04,
From: Poland
Status: offline
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Sigh- US$99 - I'm off.
Dou you think that how many people will even bother to try othe tools if they are to pay that much?
I might be seeing it from a different perspective (Poland) but that's the pricing policy that makes the people either crack the MS windows and use it illegally or turn to linux. And forget about having Linux users switch to the Interix if they have to pay that much for the toolset.
Microsoft gave Interix for free but that would be a step backwards.
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 30, '04, 3:45:14 PM
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Rodney
Posts: 3729
Joined: Jul. 9, '02,
From: /Tools lab
Status: offline
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As Bill wrote earlier, we're going to try the $20.00 donation idea.
It's not mandatory; it's voluntary. When Bill and I spoke this morning
about ideas I raised the notion that /Tools might become something-like
PBS the Public TV network in the U.S. The same model is used with other
public TV networks in other countries (Canada, Australia, etc.). So you
might see some reminders appearing in the future asking for a donation.
But the access will still be here regardless of your donation level.
We understand that people see the value of /Tools. We also understand that
not everyone can afford a mandatory fee that's high. So our efforts will be
to try and keep the community as a whole that has developed. We don't want
to chase anyone away. Everyone has been very friendly and this has been nice.
We also appreciate the discussion here (and in e-mail and with chats) that
everyone has contributed. We're not discounting any ideas or suggestions
or feedback or critique. It all helps us see the "big picture" better.
< Message edited by Rodney -- Sep. 30, '04, 3:51:16 PM >
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RE: Contributing packages - Sep. 30, '04, 3:50:41 PM
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jonsmi
Posts: 168
Joined: Aug. 12, '03,
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline
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quote:
Use a different pricing model, accommodating to economic possibilities
(students, Eastern Europe, etc).
This was one of the things I mentioned. One of the other things was, that I
don't believe too much in voluntary donations (except when there is a large
human catastrophe). And the 99 bucks would sound reasonable seen from Norway,
which is a very expensive country (there's some oil out there).
Adds -- as you proposed -- are no bad idea, SFU is about integration and lacking
an X Server. There are better tools out there to integrate with AD, perhaps
a NFSv4 client. Major UNIX and Linux (RH and SUSE) players could be interested.
Perhaps we even see commercial software for Interix.
MS could be interested to come up with adds. Quite some typical UNIX users
should visit Interop Systems. MS might want to tell them such things that
ISA Server is a much better solution than OpenBSD and Squid,
But would any pricing, say it was just 20 bucks, turn you off?
Anyhow, the proposal from Interop Systems was a voluntary US$20 for a try,
so tell us how we can pay with VISA.
The main point is that these guys got to make a living, and we want to keep
this site alive.
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Printable Version
Hopefully within a couple of months.